[Sampanviking]

It is I think a question whose time has come.

The purpose of this thread is really to look at effective methods of overcoming the establishment hostility in the West and be able to present the PRC in its positive light to the ordinary citizen. What this means is that China needs to be presented as an International force or phenomena that is intrinsically benign.

Its also a message that needs careful crafting and consideration if it is to avoid the pantomime labelling and name calling of the West's Liberal Elite and Right Ring Reactionaries. This means that simply promoting a nationalist identity or the China Model as a creed is going to be counter productive. Nationalistic enthusiasm will simply be dismissed as jingoism and probably with sinister implications for security and simply allow the China Threat maniacs to have a field day.
Likewise to try and promote the China Model of itself will simply prompt accusations of aggressively exporting ideology and simply be a new phase of International Communist Revolution.

Obviously if you are Chinese you can bask in the glow of National Glory and feel justifiably proud, but how to sell China to none Chinese and especially westerners and others in the developed world?

I suppose I can feel attune to this to a degree as my support of the PRC exceeds simply my family connections. China itself seems to be sensitive to the same problem as it is now calling its development the "China Case" rather then the "China Model". This is significant as China is not saying "we have a model and it can work for you too as one size fits all". Its also significant as it puts clear blue water between itself and the West which does promote its Politics and Ethics in this way.

So what then is the message? Or to ask another way, Why do I admire China?

Its multi faceted. Certainly there is the Family connection and the exposure to lives and culture completely outside of my original experience, but that is far to personal and hardly likely to inspire those with no such connections.
Next then, is the fact that I find the functionality of the society so refreshing. Chinese cities are visually inspiring and "safe" meaning you can wander the main streets at any time of day or night and not feel threatened. Young people are largely well adjusted and good mannered. In short the feeling of the nation is one not only of economic dynamism but also socially stable and it is these qualities that China seems to be exporting to its neighbours.
In Geopolitics, I admire China and look to it to provide the force that can break the Axis of Chaos that is the US and Israel, again not through force of arms but simply by presence and by providing an example.
Finally, it is the non-dogmatic way that the Chinese leadership approach problem solving, by taking examples of possible solutions from all over the world, examine them and then see if they can be adapted for use in the Chinese cultural context.

This then is my feeling towards China. That at a time when the West is falling from rationalism into the hysteria of quasi religious secular movements ie Climate Change, Liberal Democracy, Human Rights etc and losing sight of the basic functions of a civilised society, China is providing a vivid example of a New Rationalism and offering a vision of the world built on International openness, Mutual Respect, Stability and which is moving forward in continued economic development and also now, human dignity.

So what is China to you and what does it represent? How can this be packaged to win approval and support throughout the world?

Its a big question, but the right answer could be worth more than its weight in gold!

[Bill]

I too have thought about this problem. Here is what I think.

It is very difficult to sell China as a brand. There are very few things in common with the western world. Let's break this down a little:

• Different race - a lot of countries get good relation simply because of their color, China will not be able to use this.
  
• Different religion - other countries get good relation because of their common religion, or religious group. As much as Orthodox, Protestiant, or the Jewish faith hate each other, they are a billion times more likable than the Islamic faith, or worse, Athiem.
  
• Different political view - dead give away here. Non-communist countries simply doesn't like communist countries that much.
  
• Different cultural group - you think Japan and China are different, when compare them to Europe, they are like conjoined twins!
  
• Different values - we simply care about different things than the west. I believe out of this entire list, this is got to be the most important one.
  
• Social differences - we have a large, relatively poor population; while the west have a smaller, relatively rich population. Different social group care about different things.

So how do we sell the Chinese brand? In my mind, there are two ways:

• Make them more like us.
  
• Make us more like them.

Obviously, it's more to our interest to make them more like us. But both are happening already and continue to do so. To be similar enough that you see any substantial change is in my opinion not possible or will take forever. I mean things like Race, or Religion; simply can't be changed. From that point of view, China will never be "in" with them.

However, I think that's ok. Why do people put up with those that they don't like / having nothing in common? They are useful. It's a power thing. Why do China need to be liked? People will support you if you are powerful enough. They will "FIND" things to like you about simply because it's in their advantage to like you. PR doesn't work when the divide is so big: a scoop of poop is a scoop of poop whatever how you sell it. What would work is if China is the best at absolutely everything, once again, the brand would write itself.

I wrote a similar post a little while ago, the message is the same. A gun is more persuasive than a pen, Mao was absolutely right about this.

[Sampanviking]

Its true everybody loves a winner, and the key phrase as you put it has to be "to make them more like us" or to put it another way, to make the people in the West less hostile to the concept of China.

I see it as a "packaging of what China is doing and how it is doing it" along with other countries that are following its example. A message to the West of "your current political models are failing, but there is a viable alternative that delivers the goods".

Although the message would need to be refined to reflect the problems of individual nations, it should still be possible to distill the essence of the message and package it attractively.

Maybe a few examples? I will outline the UK later today, but I would welcome the input from others for the country where they live.

[IchiNiSan]

Actually why only discuss the West? Maybe it is because many of us have a Western background, and so want the rest of these Westerners to be enlighted about the PRC? Don't you also have that strong urge to convince some of those Western friends who you care so much about all the positive sides of China? Or is it in some way we feel that we are more in competition with the Western world than the rest?

When we tackle this issue, we should not limit our scope to the Western world and focus on the Global community. So rather to make the Westerners less hostile, how about make the world trying to envy and pursue the Chinese culture, system & life?

"A gun is more persuasive than a pen". I have a hard time to agree with Mao's view in today's nuclear world. The issue is that the Soviet-Union had a pretty big gun before, and they failed miserably in persuaing anyone. And the American Empirialists big guns is definitely pretty effective in taking what it wants, but in the modern world when the "invader" is not going to truely colonize the occupied territories, in the long-term it only created much more enemies than they can bare.

Surely, winners attract people, but these fanboys will also be the first one to abandon ship. We need to create something sustainable in which even in a downtime the outside China living people (Chinese and/or non-Chinese) would voluntarily reach out their hands to get us faster out of the dip. Create something so deep that in their hearts and thoughts they would have a difficult time to express why they love China, and would even want to emigrate to China not merely because of economic reasons.

Is this too idealistic to even think about? Think big and positive I would say, there was once upon a time that America was the promised land, in which the Europeans went to there for something much deeper than only the potential of getting rich.....

It's late here, I think I would need more time to put down my thoughts in proper writing of why I love China with all my heart, and this is not because I'm Chinese. (TBC)

[Bill]

IchiNiSan, on Mar 19 2010, 03:59 PM, said:

"A gun is more persuasive than a pen". I have a hard time to agree with Mao's view in today's nuclear world. The issue is that the Soviet-Union had a pretty big gun before, and they failed miserably in persuaing anyone. And the American Empirialists big guns is definitely pretty effective in taking what it wants, but in the modern world when the "invader" is not going to truely colonize the occupied territories, in the long-term it only created much more enemies than they can bare. .

Here is some food for your thoughts. By gun, we aren't just talking about military hardware. Economic power, political capital, and influence, are all legitimate "GUNS" that can be weld. Have you heard of the Comprehensive National Power? This is more of what I have in mind when I say guns; this, compare to having a good reputation. Here is an example, Canada, a very "neutral" country that is more or less liked by most, yet have very little actual power. Sure everyone might have that warm fuzzy feeling when talking about it, but at the end of the day, it's quite useless.

IchiNiSan, on Mar 19 2010, 03:59 PM, said:

Surely, winners attract people, but these fanboys will also be the first one to abandon ship. We need to create something sustainable in which even in a downtime the outside China living people (Chinese and/or non-Chinese) would voluntarily reach out their hands to get us faster out of the dip. Create something so deep that in their hearts and thoughts they would have a difficult time to express why they love China, and would even want to emigrate to China not merely because of economic reasons.

Well yea, abandon ship is human nature. In the same way they would abandon ship if China was to grow week; they would abandon ship if it was also the US. I don't see it as a problem, see it as an oppotunity. Beside, it's good to be always on your toe. And really, reliance isn't good in anycase. Immigration is just icing on the cake, you can't really rely on it to build a country.

[IchiNiSan]

yongke, on Mar 20 2010, 01:21 AM, said:

Here is some food for your thoughts. By gun, we aren't just talking about military hardware. Economic power, political capital, and influence, are all legitimate "GUNS" that can be weld. Have you heard of the Comprehensive National Power? This is more of what I have in mind when I say guns; this, compare to having a good reputation. Here is an example, Canada, a very "neutral" country that is more or less liked by most, yet have very little actual power. Sure everyone might have that warm fuzzy feeling when talking about it, but at the end of the day, it's quite useless.

If you define "guns" in this context, yes I agree. Never heard of the CNP before, it does fit very well in my ideas, I am a big supporter of utilizing Soft power and assymetric (warfare) strategies. You read unrestricted warfare? Not exactly about nation building, but given the proper fine-tuning and tweaking it suits very well for nation-building, I would rather give the credits to Deng Xiaoping. After all, I think Mao referred to the so-called Hard power in literally military power, which is actually nothing different than the same short-term strategies of what the Western world is doing.

It is interesting though it is China trying to quantify this CNP in data and scores, I am interested to check out the more detailed methodology behind this CNP.

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Well yea, abandon ship is human nature. In the same way they would abandon ship if China was to grow week; they would abandon ship if it was also the US. I don't see it as a problem, see it as an oppotunity. Beside, it's good to be always on your toe. And really, reliance isn't good in anycase. Immigration is just icing on the cake, you can't really rely on it to build a country.

It's rather survival instint of the animal in human beings, but what distinguish humans from animals is that Humans are intelligently capable of having a belief and have ideologies. And in many occassions, if the belief, ideologies and principles are uphold well, many distinct people of even different skin colors sharing the same beliefs and principles will jump in the fire to help you out. I do bet most of us will not jump into that same fire if we know that the one in the fire is a rapists and having no any common beliefs.....

No, I don't want masses to immigrate to China, Europe has ruined themselves beyond repair by doing this, they only received people sharing totally different beliefs and ideologies and went to Europe for merely economic reasons. I was trying to make a point that it would be most ideal if people around the world see China actually as the "promised land" full of respects and envy, so those, out of heart, sharing the same Chinese values and beliefs should be welcomed. And if not, from abroad helping China's nation building. I think on this board we have an extremely good example of how someone from a totally different background and non-Chinese ethnic would jump in the fire to defend China with his heart. This touches me very much, and make me believe that it is possible that the majority of the Global community could be enlighted too.

[Sampanviking]

Thats very kind of you and there are a number of non Chinese members who are here in sympathy rather than opposition.

I think there is a strong message of positiveness, development, co-operation and stability which stands in stark contrast to the negative, aggressive, destructive and plain paranoid politics which eminates from the US.

That which China represents can easily be applied to other countries and so I would love to find a grand heading with which to package it. Do you know the old saying "if we could bottle it we would make fortunes"? well I am a holding a bottle......

[IchiNiSan]

Sampanviking, on Mar 19 2010, 05:32 PM, said:

Its true everybody loves a winner, and the key phrase as you put it has to be "to make them more like us" or to put it another way, to make the people in the West less hostile to the concept of China.

I see it as a "packaging of what China is doing and how it is doing it" along with other countries that are following its example. A message to the West of "your current political models are failing, but there is a viable alternative that delivers the goods".

Although the message would need to be refined to reflect the problems of individual nations, it should still be possible to distill the essence of the message and package it attractively.

Maybe a few examples? I will outline the UK later today, but I would welcome the input from others for the country where they live.

I did not know in which thread I should post the following article from Global Research, this or the other one by Yongke in Domestic Affairs. Decided to put it here as I believe it is of more relevance of how to "package China" by showing the core issues of "democractic" nations. And besides I still want to define my deep hearted reasons for "Why support the PRC", maybe in another post....

The Disintegration of Fractured Democracies

Everyone take your time to read the first quotes about the fall of an Empire.....

Quote

The death of the nation was both violent and natural. The fatal agents were the organic disorders of the system. The government had proven incapable of solving problems: it failed to preserve domestic order or an effective defense; it discovered no way of reconciling local autonomy with national stability and power; and its love of liberty failed to interfere with its passion for empire and war. The class struggle had become bitter beyond control and had turned democracy into a contest in legislative looting. The legislature degenerated into a mob, rejecting all restraint, voting itself every favor, and crushing initiative, industry, and thrift.

Education spread, but thinly; it stressed knowledge more than character and produced masses of half-educated people. The old problem of ethics and morals found no solution in religion, statesmanship, or philosophy. Religious superstition spread even while science reached its apogee. The growth of knowledge secularized morals, marriage, parentage, and law, and the pursuit of pleasure prevailed. Public games degenerated into professional contests; the people, who had once been athletic, now became spectators, content to witness rather than to do. Sexual morality was relaxed, and human life was portrayed as a round of triviality, seduction, and adultery. . . . The nation had destroyed itself; it died of its own tyrannous anarchy.

By now, I think many would thought the author is talking about today's sole superpower, but apparently these are the famous words of Durant about an ancient democratic Superpower, supposedly the first democratic one....

A final paragraph of this article is most appealing to me when we talk about China "enlightened group" governing system and Western "selfish group" governing system. [Note: for those who don't understand what I mean by my claim of China "enlightened group" governing system, I would refer to the thread Communism as an ideology. CCP as a party.]

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Madison claims "that the causes of faction cannot be removed." Perhaps! But factionalism can be minimized, and the way to do it is not difficult to discern. All that needs to be done is for governments to enact legislation that enhances the well being of people rather than institutions and special interests. Promoting an economic system that exploits the people and impoverishes them at fairly regular intervals, restrictions on freedom, and corruption of the political system are not effective ways of making friends and influencing people. They are, however, effective ways of promoting anger, sometimes to the point of hatred. Any government anywhere, regardless of its form, democratic or authoritarian, that governs for the few rather than all generates factions. Such governments sooner or later lose their legitimacies and their societies implode.

So when we talk about "the problems of individual nations", then it is rather the failure of Western democracies to attach them to how to preserve and develop the general interests for their societies. In these nations individualism has infected the whole political system, causing these politicians who are supposed to be "enlightened" and act in the greater interest for the whole society, but rather act "selfishly" and act only in the interests of specific and small greedy parties like Bankers, Multinationals etc. And in the case of the smaller Western nations even acting in the interests of the US empire.....

[Sampanviking]

Good Find Ichi and you can probably apply many of the same arguments to any Liberal Democracy to a greater or lesser extent. The reason for this is simple, the US has imposed its (recycled) philosophy on the rest of the West, and while it sits comfortably on none of them, it fits least well on the US itself. Quite an amazing state of affairs when you think about it.

In a sense though not really surprising as most European countries have at least have a semblance of roots and regional identity, while the US has none.

I would add another paragraph which illustrates this nicely

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Americans often reject ideas because they are termed "foreign." For instance, socialism to Americans is a foreign ideology, but, although it goes unacknowledged, so is capitalism. Adam Smith and David Ricardo, the grandfathers of America's capitalist economic system, were not Americans. In fact, hardly any ideologies that have taken root in American have American origins. Certainly not Christianity, democracy, or hegemony. And the one American idea often boasted of has been totally ineffective?the melting pot. It never got hot enough to melt anything.

This leads to an old favourite argument of mine, which is that the US is only held together by the common love of money and ever increasing prosperity/living standards for its citizens. Take that away and you only have a mass of competing groups that genuinely loath and hate each other and who will turn on each other like dogs. Its already a fact of life in the inner cities, but could easily explode through out all areas and strata, leading to the disintegration of the Federal Republic.

For China it presents a model of everything to avoid, a graphic illustration of how the promise of unfettered personal liberty is only the beautified entrance avenue of the road to hell. The rise of factions though is something to note carefully. Every individual truly needs to have a body greater than themselves that stands between them and the state. Not only is this because the disparity between state and individual is too great to ensure fairness, but because it is also hideously expensive and inefficient for the state to try and deal directly with each individual. In the US the cult of personal freedom has led precisely to the individual and state having to deal directly with each other, to the satisfaction of neither. The individual comes away bruised and; as a consequence of having their deliberately and lifelong, over inflated sense of self worth shaken and disabused, resentful. This has resulted in the search for affinity groups based on shared grievance and hence the rise of extremism and intolerance.

I think China does need to ensure that social structures that support the individual are maintained and adapted to the modern age. Easy to say of course as traditional support structures may not be so perfect themselves, but.....