[Red Fox Ace]

French army falling apart, documents show


By Henry Samuel in Paris

Last Updated: 10:50PM BST 06/06/2008

Most of France's tanks, helicopters and jet fighters are unusable and its defence apparatus is on the verge of "falling apart", it has emerged.

According to confidential defence documents leaked to the French press, less than half of France's Leclerc tanks ? 142 out of 346 ? are operational and even these regularly break down.

Less than half of its Puma helicopters, 37 per cent of its Lynx choppers and 33 per cent of its Super Frelon models ? built 40 years ago ? are in a fit state to fly, according to documents seen by Le Parisien newspaper.

Two thirds of France's Mirage F1 reconnaissance jets are unusable at present.

According to army officials, the precarious state of France's defence equipment almost led to catastrophe in April, when French special forces rescued the passengers and crew of a luxury yacht held by pirates off the Somali coast.

Although ultimately a success, the rescue operation nearly foundered at an early stage, when two of the frigates carrying troops suffered engine failure, and a launch laden with special forces' equipment sunk under its weight.

Later, an Atlantic 2 jet tracking the pirates above Somali territory suffered engine failure and had to make an emergency landing in Yemen.

"External operations, in the Ivory Coast and Lebanon are a fig leaf: we are able to keep up the pretence but in ten years our defence apparatus will fall apart," one high-ranking official said.

The disclosure comes just ten days before President Nicolas Sarkozy announces a major reform of the armed forces, with a defence white paper outlining France's military priorities for the next 15 years.

He is expected to argue that the situation can only improve by reducing the number of France's operational troops from 50,000 to 30,000, and its fighter aircraft, as well as closing military bases.

He will also use the occasion to push for greater military integration in Europe, an issue that France will highlight when it takes over the EU's six-month rotating presidency in July.

French proposals circulating in Brussels show that France wants a new EU military headquarters based in the Belgian capital and run by Europe's new foreign policy chief. It is also calling for a bigger rapid reaction force and for countries to spend more on defence.

France has played down its European defence ambitions for fear of boosting the No vote in Ireland's referendum on the Lisbon treaty on June 12.

In parallel to beefing up the EU's defence capability, Mr Sarkozy is keen on France becoming a full member of Nato's integrated military command structure, which Charles de Gaulle left in 1966. But he is unlikely to make a decision on this until next year.

[Sampanviking]

Hmmm Mr Cuckoo is looking to increase the French Military budget methinks. Afterall he cant open new bases in the Persian Gulf if they don't have some nice kit!!

Whatever happened to the Foreign Legion?

[calmwater]

This sounds exactly like the state the German Bundeswehr is right now, using stuff they build or purchase some 30-40 years ago. Through upgrades they are still topnotch but the stuff have more patches you hardly believe they will be usable any longer. But made in Germany still stands for quality

The Bundeswehr on the paper have 300.000 men and women under arms but actually only 15.000-20.000 are capable for fighting duties, like Afghanistan.

What does it says about the state of European military might if both the backbone of the EU, France and Germany are in the pinch?

[OneOneSeven]

What about the state of the Russian military?

However, Germans have the Leopard. Enough said.

[flyzies]

^ Russian military is worst off than Europeans are...way worse.

It seems Europeans are now lacking the will to fight (as shown in Afghanistan) so therefore military maintenance is not kept up. When equipment is not in shape, soldiers will to fight dips even further...vicious cycle this one.

[Red Fox Ace]

flyzies, on Jun 17 2008, 12:28 AM, said:

^ Russian military is worst off than Europeans are...way worse.

Yes, but the Russians have the will to rebuild themselves back into a military powerhouse (especially under strongman Putin.) The Europeans seem to have no will or desire to do so.

[OneOneSeven]

Story Highlights

# France to rejoin NATO's military command, French President Sarkozy announces
# French split with NATO's military structure in 1966 amid frictions with U.S.
# France set to push closer EU military cooperation when it assumes EU presidency
# France has continued to contribute troops, funds to NATO missions

Source



What does that mean? Sure, each individual country's warfighting capabilities have severely retrogressed, but France rejoining NATO despite the quagmire in Afghanistan? Should this be a response to militarization of Russia?

[Player 0]

If anything it's a response to France's wanning military, which is why i'm joining these two threads.

[flyzies]

OneOneSeven, on Jun 18 2008, 01:47 PM, said:

What does that mean? Sure, each individual country's warfighting capabilities have severely retrogressed, but France rejoining NATO despite the quagmire in Afghanistan? Should this be a response to militarization of Russia?

If it is a response to Russia, France wouldnt be cutting combat ready troops from 50,000 to 30,000. This change is one to reflect on the new priorities in their eyes; that is, no longer will be there be a major conflict on European soil.

[Sampanviking]

I see it more sinisterly as a move by La Cuckoo to end France's independent national and European foreign and security policies and return France (thus delivering the EU) as a tame client of the US within NATO.

Remember, If the EU ever really got its act together, it would be capable of replacing the US as premier world power today!!

DeGaul must be turning in his grave!!

[General Pinochet]

It is simply that Europeans, being more liberal and soft like they are, with perhaps the exception of the British, do not have the will to mantain large, sophisticated standing conventional forces, unlike the US. God knows they have the capability, if they wanted or really needed to, given they have the technological knowhow and population. But they would only do so if they percieved a real threat facing them, like the USSR back in the 70s and 80s. For now, though, they are content to siphon ever greater amounts from the defense budget into a welfare state that doesn't seem to be curing any of their economic problems and only seems to be perpetuating, even expanding, the existence of unemployed, smug underclasses.

[Sedna]

Sampanviking, on Jun 18 2008, 03:31 AM, said:

I see it more sinisterly as a move by La Cuckoo to end France's independent national and European foreign and security policies and return France (thus delivering the EU) as a tame client of the US within NATO.

Time for a blame game

Sampanviking, on Jun 18 2008, 03:31 AM, said:

Remember, If the EU ever really got its act together, it would be capable of replacing the US as premier world power today!!

Sure, if the Polish president wasn't so retarded. But then again, Germany DID slaughter a good amount of Poles.

Sampanviking, on Jun 18 2008, 03:31 AM, said:

DeGaul must be turning in his grave!!

de Gaulle was a fine man, and yes he would

[calmwater]

The frog eaters have a simple problem, they still believe that France is "la grande nation". Sarkozy does not look like a modern Napoleon but at least he have the same height.

The french are dancing at to many parties, EU, Nato, Eurocorp, Mediterranean.

[Sampanviking]

It could be the biggest tragedy that Sarkozy inflicts on Europe, that just as it makes perfect sense to decouple from a sinking US and establish the EU as a real player in its own right, that he instead takes Europe in completely the opposite direction and one of the least benefit to the continent.

The best thing Europe could do is disassociate itself from the Religious fanatics of the Washington Tel Aviv Axis of Paranoia, send the Missile Defence plans back home and work on developing ever closer ties with Russia and Asia.

[Sedna]

Sampanviking, on Jul 26 2008, 04:39 AM, said:

It could be the biggest tragedy that Sarkozy inflicts on Europe, that just as it makes perfect sense to decouple from a sinking US and establish the EU as a real player in its own right, that he instead takes Europe in completely the opposite direction and one of the least benefit to the continent.

Well, he's probably too busy thinking "Hey I'm screwing my wife Clara everything will be fine!"

Sampanviking, on Jul 26 2008, 04:39 AM, said:

The best thing Europe could do is disassociate itself from the Religious fanatics of the Washington Tel Aviv Axis of Paranoia, send the Missile Defence plans back home and work on developing ever closer ties with Russia and Asia.

If I was a Europhile like Kenneth Clarke (and I'm not, and I also hate that guy), I would have to disagree, and maintain a neutral stance with Russia and the East. It's time to kick out Charlemagne-esc ideologies and bring back realpolitik. If Russia could divide the EU with just energy talks, then the EU can do much more...

If the EU stops being so goddamn pansy socialist and actually work for a bit (and complaining doesn't count)

[Sampanviking]

Russia does at least have something fundamental that we want and need, what exactly do we get from the US these days? Alienating the guys who can actually can help us for the benefit of those who have nothing we want, is madness.

There is no argument about the EU being a waste of space a the moment (which makes any attempt at serious talk about it becoming a major player seem so ridiculous). It is a bit like the kid before and after he leaves home, once he has to stand on his own two feet, its amazing just how quickly perceptions and attitudes change.

[Sedna]

Sampanviking, on Jul 27 2008, 04:14 AM, said:

Russia does at least have something fundamental that we want and need, what exactly do we get from the US these days? Alienating the guys who can actually can help us for the benefit of those who have nothing we want, is madness.

That's what you get for having a bunch of Wilsonian liberals in office.

Don't expect much from Obama either, trust me.

[Sampanviking]

Don't worry, I don't expect much from any of them.

[General Pinochet]

Sampanviking, on Jul 27 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

Russia does at least have something fundamental that we want and need, what exactly do we get from the US these days?

How about saving your asses in two World Wars and then protecting you, along with the rest of Europe, from a Communist threat for over half a century just to begin?

And you are overlooking something much more significant- you folks in the UK will be remembered in the history books as our sidekicks during the golden age of Pax Americana.

[calmwater]

General Pinochet, on Aug 4 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

How about saving your asses in two World Wars and then protecting you, along with the rest of Europe, from a Communist threat for over half a century just to begin?

And you are overlooking something much more significant- you folks in the UK will be remembered in the history books as our sidekicks during the golden age of Pax Americana.

How about saying without Brits, America would never be founded over 232 years ago ?

And you are overlooking something much more significant- without German Nazi worshippers (Werner von Braun), NASA would never have succeeded to step on the moon ( though some conspiracy even doubt that it ever happen)

You will be remembered as the one with a childlike logic and and unmature, who really needs to polish his discussion skill.

Does these arguments sound silly? Yes but they are the same nonsense you are writing at the moment

my 2 cent ranting